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Fish Eyes - Geez
http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10102&t=9965		 Page 1 of 1
Author:  rich altieri [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:14 pm ]
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I am finishing my latest build which is Brazilian. Applied coule coats of shellac and then knocked off the nibs with steel wool (which I think was the culprit). Applied my filler and finished filling with 400 grit paper, then applied couple more coats of shellac. Brushed on. Looks like I am going to have major problems with fish eyes as the shellac was seperating and thats more fogiving I think than lacquer.

Wondering if there is something I can wipe it down with before applying lacquer??? I know I can add fish eye killer to the lacquer but was hoping to avoid over use of fish eye killer.

Any thoughts?

The steel wool must have had some coating, maybe silicone?
Author:  Frank Ford [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:40 pm ]
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Brushing shellac may be the issue. Shellac doesn't like brushing or spraying.
It likes wiping. By wiping it on with a rag, you actually mash the stuff down
into the pores that creat fisheyes if the shellac is allowed to flow (read
"creep"). Nothing creeps and crawls with surface tension like good ol'
shellac. . .
Cheers,

Frank Ford
FRETS.COM
Gryphon Stringed Instruments
My Home
Shop Pages
Author:  rich altieri [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 1:44 pm ]
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Thanks so much Frank. Wonder now if I will have fish eye problems with the lacquer or if it will not be a problem. My plan is to sand it down level with 320 grit and apply lacquer
Author:  Dickey [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:44 pm ]
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That Frank knows his stuff.

Rich, I just finished lacquering a rosewood guitar with McFaddens. I had some fisheye problems too. It occurs to me that LMI sells McFadden's Vinyl Sealer for use under their lacquer.

You didn't mention brand of products you were using? Good luck, first thing I'd try is mashing that shellac down in those pores. Frank's been at this a while and he's a guru to most of us..... if not all!

Hi Frank!
Author:  John How [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 2:57 pm ]
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I would recommend cleanign it real well after the steel wool also with a little naptha.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Fri Dec 22, 2006 11:43 pm ]
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Zpoxy, then lacquer .. nothing else required.
Author:  Colin S [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:24 am ]
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"That Frank knows his stuff"

Never a truer word spoken Bruce!

ColinColin S39074.4350231482
Author:  rich altieri [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:28 am ]
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[QUOTE=John How] I would recommend cleanign it real well after the steel wool also with a little naptha.[/QUOTE]

Naptha would disolve shellac??
Author:  rich altieri [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 2:32 am ]
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Tony, I have been down the epoxy path before and made a mess of it to the point I vowed never again, but then I may need a better understanding.

Once you apply the epoxy do you sand it all off except what remains in the poors?

I tried using it like a top coat finish and kepts sanding through, then when I applied my lacquer, all the sanded through areas showed like shadows.

Is the real trick here to apply it as lightly as possible with a credit card or something and then sand it down to bare wood when done??

I think on this one I will stay the course as the shellac sanded out well and the poors are filled nicely - ready for top finish.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:33 am ]
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Here is what I (and a host of others) do with Zpoxy:

1 - regular mix, spread with credit card, keep as smooth as possible, getting it into the pores.

2 - sand that back smooth to the wood, leaving in pores. Evaluate whether another regular mix coat is required. If so, repeat 1 and 2.

3 - 50/50 or 60/40 mix of Zpox with methyl Hydrate. wipe on with lint free cloth, giving even thin coat and evening out colour - thats the key here.

4 - lighly sand with 400, I have used 0000 steel wool successfully as well - dont go thru to the wood - thats why you get the splotches.

5 - start shooting lac - it sticks to Zpox better than it sticks to wood as far as my experince goes. I shoot about 5-6 coats, then flat sand. If you notice any gaps, usually at the binding, drop fill them during these coats, but dont bother flat sanding until coat 5-6.

You should be able to get the guitar dead flat everywhere now without sanding thru. Shoot another 4-5 coats and let cure. Final finish thickness is about 5-6 thou once you go thru the grits (I go to 1000 B&S, 1500 top) and buff out with the Menzerna compounds.

Sit back and enjoy your efforts ... works for me.
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 3:48 am ]
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[QUOTE=TonyKarol] Zpoxy, then lacquer .. nothing else required.[/QUOTE]

Rich, I'm glad you asked this question. Tony, thanks for the response. (enter into notebook, Zpoxy, lacquer, nothing else.)

I'm like Rich, after my first attempt at epoxy fill I too vowed, never again. My error was thick epoxy (any brand'll do, not)and using my wife's rubber ended spatula. I thought it would sand out flat, wrong!

Go ahead, you might as well laugh. Thanks Tony, you've talked me into ordering zpoxy instead of vinyl sealer. Go Rich Go, post pics.
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:09 am ]
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Tony, Here are a couple questions I'm unclear on from your finishing schedule above:

1. what is Methyl Hydrate and were do you get the stuff? (I've heard of folks using denatured alcohol to thin epoxy fill or to make it spreadable? Could you comment on that?)

2. Can you be a bit more specific about "Going Through The Grits"? What grits do you go through to get to 1,000 grit for Back and sides? And what grits do you go through to get to 1500 for the top?

3. Finally, I use the white Menzerna for final buff, but you use the word plurally. So could you go through your buffing compounds to achieve final luster?

4. Also, you didn't allude to your buffer, what kinds of buffs do you use? I have some cotton concentric sewn on one side, final, and airway cotton buffs on the other, which I use 3M wet buffing compound, it's messy and I seem to burn through lacquer in hard to buff spots. I'm switching those out for softer buffs, but I'm wondering if I should try a different compound as well?

I love the menzerna white on the final buff, so simple to apply, and it lasts a long time.

TIA, Bruce
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:35 am ]
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1 - M Hydrate is denatured alcohol - home depot.

2 - first flat sand, after 5-6 coats is with 400 - no sense going any finer, you are trying to get it flat, not ready to buff.

After all spraying is done, 600, 1000, 1500. I see no need to use more imbetweens ... you are just using the 1000 to get rid of 600 sanding scratches, and make it 1000 sanding scratches - it takes all of ten minutes to do the whole guitar - then same with 1500.

3 - menzerna fine, then ultra fine or Glans Wach they call it.

4 - homemade buffer, 1/5 horse running 1725, equal sized pulleys. I had 9 inch buffs, but they were getting small from wear, so I just moved up to the 12 inch StewMac's, again homemade wooden 5 inch stiffeners. I tried two on each wheel and didnt like it - a single one was wider than my old buffs, so I am used to that. Plus the motor woudl bog downt oo easy with two on, so one it is. Gets into cutaways easier as well. If I push hard, I can slow the buffs down a lot, so the HP is jsut right, speed is good too.

Finally, I use a soft cloth and Mequiars #10 ... finish is better than off the wheel IMO. Then #26 wax .. feels like glass.

For those who think - oh no, not wax - what if you have to refin .. well, I did just that the other day - had already waxed up a headstock, and then notice two small rubthrus i never caught before - just the right light - DARN . So I cleaned the whole headstock with mineral spirits, drop filled with lac and then wet sanded with MS the whole headstock, masked and resprayed - NO fisheyes whatsoever . Headstock is now completed again and looks great.

When a guitar is finally done, I always wish it could be better WRT the finish (I know AZ, I am just being overly picky - thats my downfall - the next one will ALWAYS be better) .... till I saw the slope shoulder Burst top dread of Lance's at the Zootmans this summer, which was finished by the other Tony ... and it looked ab-fab (as did all of the Hesher's). Side by side, my Guiding Light held its own - I think there is a pic with reflection on Zootman's website from the gathering.
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 4:38 am ]
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Just checked Bob's site. Gathering pg 2, couple shots -- its actually the Dragonfly back, about 1.5 years complete - Alain's reflection and the tree tops are pretty crisp.
Author:  Dickey [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 5:25 am ]
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Sorry to bend the topic Rich, but this is an Achilles heel for many a luthier, me included.

I've had some guitars turn out very nice. But know, they must have better finishes than yesterday.

Thanks Tony, there are two of you?

WAX? Whoa Nellie! Okay, a few more questions:

1. What wax is #26, brand?

2. Mequiars #10, what does that say on the bottle? I followed Mario's suggestion and have Mequiars #9 Swirl remover, followed by Mequiars #7 Glaze.

I couldn't tell you if glaze is wax, the bottle says it's polish, it's green as snot and a bit stinky. It also will cause ebony to become white with dried compound so you have to be careful with it.

Thanks Tony, Bruce
Author:  TonyKarol [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:31 am ]
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#10 - plastic polish
#26 is Meguiars as well.

I think 7 and 10 are pretty close to the same thing. I used to use that as well ...
Author:  rich altieri [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 8:58 am ]
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Some great information here. Will have to print this one out and save it for reference on next one.

You have me sold on taking another shot with zpoxy. Always hels when you follow instructions
Author:  JohnAbercrombie [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:12 am ]
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Thanks, everybody -and especially Tony-for the hints. It's in my files now as well.

Epoxy question: I always have WEST epoxy around here and I've used it a lot. Does anybody have experience and/or opinions on WEST vs Z-Poxy for pore filling?

John
Author:  Kim [ Sat Dec 23, 2006 10:14 am ]
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Good info here,

Thanks Lads.

Cheers

Kim
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